Perceptions of Discipline

by Zoey @ Good Googs on April 13, 2010

Welcome to the April Carnival of Natural Parenting: Parenting advice!

This post was written for inclusion in the monthly Carnival of Natural Parenting hosted by Hobo Mama and Code Name: Mama. This month we’re writing letters to ask our readers for help with a current parenting issue. Please read to the end to find a list of links to the other carnival participants.

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Parenting Advice? Normally I have plenty of that, and not all of it solicited. Ok, most of it is unsolicited. This isn’t an issue that has come up yet, exactly, although as my toddler gets more and more toddler-ish I expect it will come up alot more often.

I do not use time outs with Riley, for a whole range of reasons that you can read about here and here. I also don’t make her say sorry. I try to model behaviour to her, so I say thank-you and sorry often (when appropriate) and she does seem to be picking up on this now and says thank-you all the time.

My concern is that the vast majority of the other children her age that she spends time with are put in time out and are asked to say sorry (when appropriate). I worry, that when Riley does lash out at another child (which will eventually happen, she is after all, human) that I will be perceived as not taking it seriously, because I don’t use a conventional form of discipline.

Now obviously, I can’t spend all my time worried about what people think. But it is important to me that other people see me as taking the needs of their children seriously. And not being dismissive of Riley’s negative behaviour.

On the one hand, I could go into an explanation as to why I don’t use time outs, but I fear that will come off as judgemental. And it’s kind of hard to explain anyway in just a couple of sentences. Am I worrying over nothing? Should I just let it go and respond to people if they specifically raise it with me?

The other thing that concerns me is that time-outs are used in a pre-school setting. Am I just setting Riley up for confusion down the track, given it’s a method that the vast majority of her teachers will use.

What do you think? Has anyone had any experiences with this? Please share. I’m all about the sharing.

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Tagged as: advice, carnival of natural parenting, discipline, time outs, unconditional parenting

  • http://www.picklebums.com katepickle

    Firstly… I have to say as a (ex- before kids) preschool teacher… time outs should not be being used in any early childhood setting in Australia. Apart from it being poor practice it is not something that an accredited children’s service should be using at all.

    Now on to the other stuff… my advice is be there. Supervise and be there with your child, so if something happens you are able to step in quickly and help both children deal with the situation. Do what you already do, model for your child. Show concern for the hurt child, say sorry yourself, point out to your child what happened and why the other child is hurt, even suggest ways they could make amends if appropriate.

    I think most of ‘making a child say sorry’ is for the parent’s benefit.. it makes parents of both parties feel better. So I’ve found it doesn’t matter who does the actual sorry saying, whether it is me or my child… it still helps.

    Same goes for not doing time out. I would expect that most parents can accept that everyone guides and disciplines their child differently and as long as you are dealing with the situation (by being there etc) and helping your child learn from it then that is what counts.

    And really…anyone who really had a problem with how I choose to deal with my child in situation like that could go jump in the lake… I am not resorting to punitive, meaningless punishment to make them feel better ;)

    oops I wrote an essay… sorry!

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      I had no idea that this was the case with pre-school settings – so very good information to know!

      I do say sorry myself (more modelling) and am big on pointing out the impact the incident has had.

      I like your idea about being active in the situation – I’m sure for most people – that would be enough for them to feel comfortable.

  • http://www.raisingmyboychick.com Arwyn

    For strangers/acquaintances, I don’t say anything. When the Boychick hurts someone else, or takes their toy or whatever else unacceptable but age-appropriate behavior he may engage in, I step in to talk to him about, to check in with the other kid to see if they’re ok (thereby modeling consideration and empathy), and if he’s in a space where he can (sometimes, especially at parks or play areas, he’s way too wound up to be able to have a conversation), I’ll ask him what he thinks he can do about hurting the other person’s body/feelings, and or suggest he try making amends for it. I think trying to justify my actions — or seeming lack thereof — puts me in a defensive posture, rather than a centered one, which isn’t how I want to be. If they ask questions (which no one has), then I’d try to answer them, if they seemed sincere, or deflect, if they didn’t.

    For school — ugh, I don’t know. I’m not sure I could/would send him to a school that used time outs or other punitive measures. Which I know is a statement reflecting loads of privilege, but I’m ok exercising my privilege in protection of my child. But, I don’t think it will do her harm to be treated one way with you and another way with teachers. Kids are, generally, really good at picking up situational rules, and if anything, I think it’s even more important that you have a respectful relationship with her if her school doesn’t.

    Hope that helps…
    .-= Arwyn´s last blog ..Where is the mutually agreeable solution? — When parenting calls for blood draws =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Good point Arwyn, feeling comfortable and confident in my chosen style of parenting would probably go a long way ;o)

      I’m with you, I’m very comfortable exercising whatever privilege I have if it means Riley has a better school experience\

  • http://www.science-at-home.org Deb

    I love and try to use something based on a Montessori technique with the girls. Whoever was hurt says (theoretically!)’It really upset me when you took that/hit me. I want you to stop/give it back.’ Then the other one is supposed to mirror that back – ‘It hurt you when I hit you, I shouldn’t hit people.’

    Other parents are usually happy to see something being done, they don’t really care if there’s a sorry attached.

    For school, I agree that timeout is unlikely in junior primary and that kids are very adaptable. Usually when I’ve used it as a Secondary teacher it is a safety valve – everyone needs space to calm down. I see that as the difference between one parent and a few kids and one adult and thirty students, they naturally have different dynamics and need different techniques and kids will understand that.
    .-= Deb´s last blog ..What’s going on at school? =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      I hadn’t thought about the school situation that way Deb but you are so right – very different in the school setting to a parent and a child.

      Different relationships, different dynamics. Food for thought ;o)

  • http://www.HoboMama.com Lauren @ Hobo Mama

    I am seriously checking back for everyone’s answers, because I would like them for myself! What people have said so far is helpful already. I also have heard that kids can learn different rules for different situations, and if your rules are the ones that are most consistent, then their self-worth isn’t harmed by being occasionally in a more punishing/bribing environment (like school).

    Your mentioning of sharing at the end reminds me that I’ve also had this problem in terms of encouraging (coercing) good behavior, like parents forcing kids to share toys or eat dinner before dessert — and I’m in the group as the “bad” parent who doesn’t police her child. I have that same desire to come across as respectful and aware but just not punitive and controlling. But how do you demonstrate that to other parents? Ah, see how helpful I am! I answer your question by echoing it.
    .-= Lauren @ Hobo Mama´s last blog ..April Carnival of Natural Parenting: Parenting advice =-.

  • http://keepingmumsane.wordpress.com keepingmumsane @ What I Don’t Say

    Zoey I agree with the above. We also use similar techniques.

    I always check that the other child is alright and explain what my son was trying to do (at this stage my son doesn’t deliberately hit, he mostly accidently bumps or takes something he shouldn’t). I then say to Noodle, we need to share or walk gently etc. I always say the behaviour that is positive, not the negative.

    I haven’t got far with reading unconditional parenting yet so I hope I haven’t been too far off.

    As for time out at preschool, no good preschool or childcare setting will do timeout, it isn’t acceptable.

    Good luck. Xx
    .-= keepingmumsane @ What I Don’t Say´s last blog ..A question of sleep and sanity =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Now I’m confused, because all of the childcare centres I’m aware of do use time outs! Perhaps I’ll have to do more research.

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  • http://www.borninjapan.net Danielle

    It’s always tricky when you choose to do things differently than the norm. But, from what you’ve said, it is obvious that you’ve chosen to do so for a reason, a good one.

    So, keep marching the path you’ve chosen. Keep teaching and modeling in the way that you are. Keep parenting your little one in the way you feel is best.

    If it comes up with others, respond in the way that feels right. If that means explaining, do so. If that means a good nod and smile, that’s fine to.

    In terms of school situations, be picky, if you have that luxury. Talk to the teachers, talk to the other staff, ask good questions. If you don’t have the luxury of being picky, trust that your little one is smart. She will learn how to navigate the different social situations. She will what the expectations are in each. There is no need to parent in a way that is uncomfortable to you in order to prepare her for what she may encounter in school.

    Best of luck!

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Terrifyingly, I’m already at the point of looking at pre-schools (not for another 18 months or so, but there are waiting lists). And this is all giving me great fodder to talk to them about when I go check them out.

  • http://www.unlikelymama.net Amber

    The point you made about schools using discipline we don’t approve of just adds to my interest in homeschooling. While I think, as teenagers, regular school is fine (good even), I don’t see a real benefit to it for small children (and tweens).

    All that aside, I think kids are amazingly resilient and able to see the difference between a teacher reprimanding them and a parent using “love withdrawal”. Kids don’t expect their teachers to love them the way their parents do, so I don’t think it hurts them as deeply when they’re put in time-out.

    I would, however, take great issue with any school that allows for humiliation type punishments (ala dunce caps, naughty chairs, etc.). I think labeling kids as “naughty” just leads to further problems when they start fulfilling this perception you now have of them.

    I was actually spanked in kindergarten…how ridiculous is that???? And no, corporal punishment was NOT legal, didn’t stop the teacher from doing it (and then lying to my mother about it, like I would make that up).
    .-= Amber´s last blog ..Stupid Stupid Stupid =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Homeschooling is so tempting. As is having 6 hours of the day to myself ;o)

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  • http://downsideupandoutsidein.blogspot.com/2010/04/solo-parenting.html Mammapie

    Ooooo really good topic. My little berry is only twenty months now and to be honest, I started out thinking i would do time outs and before she was born, I though I would spank. That’s all I ever saw done. So I think talking about it is a big deal, it helps other people realize that you are parenting gently and getting results, that you dont have to hit/time out when your child does something “Wrong.”
    With that being said, I try to speak to the positive- “uh oh, you stepped on the dog. we need to be gentle to the dog or he will be hurt,” etc. My family is the biggest problem, the smack her hands and tell her NO, etc.
    Other than focusing on how she can have a gentle impact on others herself I’m not sure how to respond.
    .-= Mammapie´s last blog ..Solo Parenting =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Thanks Mammapie! I hate it when other people attempt to do the disciplining for you!

      It’s really amazed me how effective the gentle approach has been – although that might also be to do with my daughter’s temperance.

  • http://www.considereden.com Sarah

    The only thing I can recommend is homeschooling! We’re planning on going that route with our little one, mainly because there would just be too many things out of our control if we sent Axel to school. It’s hard when you don’t do things the same as everyone else, but we have to do what is best for our kids. Just hold fast, and I’m sure you’ll deal with the opposition just fine. You’re doing great!
    .-= Sarah´s last blog ..Natural Parenting Carnival – Help! =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Thanks Sarah! At least in the blogging world I’m surrounded by like-minded people.

  • http://codenamemama.com Dionna @ Code Name: Mama

    We don’t force manners either. We model and sometimes I’ll make a comment that Kieran has asked for something very politely. When we are out in public and Kieran does something that would normally elicit an apology (we are really “sorry” heavy in the US), *I* might apologize to the child. “Oh Josh, I’m sorry that you are hurting. Kieran, it looks like you were upset that Josh was playing with the blue truck. Could I help you find a different truck until Josh is done with his turn?” (blah blah blah) So I try to address the needs of both children. And, again, I’m modeling the cultural norm of apologizing. I definitely don’t want to inspire false apologies, but usually I *am* (sheepishly) sorry when Kieran has acted his age ;)
    As far as preschools that use time-outs – I’m with a couple of the pp’s who said they would look elsewhere. I just would not feel comfortable with a discipline approach that we don’t endorse at home. There’s got to be SOME preschool out there that doesn’t use timeouts, right?!
    .-= Dionna @ Code Name: Mama´s last blog ..How We Came to Unschooling =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      I’m always making sure I say ‘please’, ‘thank you’ and ‘sorry’ so that Riley gets what it’s all about. So far it seems to be working and she’s all into the ‘thank you’ at the moment. But I like everyone’s idea of me doing the apologising when we are in a situation that calls for it.

      We live in an area that is not exactly progressive – so I’ll have to research the pre-school thing further.

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  • http://bluebirdmama.com/2010/04/balancing-needs/ BluebirdMama

    I agree with the other comments. I would think you’d be able to find a preschool that doesn’t use time outs – especially in a group setting I think it would really single a child out and open them up to ridicule. I wouldn’t imagine progressive schools would do that. The school my son goes to had their whole discipline policy written up and gave it to us when we filled out our registration form. Perhaps you can request something similar when you are looking at schools?

    In social settings, we usually step in and model the appropriate behaviour if our son isn’t doing it on his own. Saying thank you or appologizing on his behalf. To be clear, we say something along the lines of “I’m sorry that Rain took your toy.” I think this addresses the issue for the other child/parent while simultaneously modeling the behaviour we’d like to see. We also are clear to explain to Rain what about his behaviour was unacceptable or to encourage gratitude (eg. “Wasn’t that kind of Emma to share her crackers with you?” I also make an effort to teach empathy because I think that addresses both sides of the issue – appeasing the other parent/child and teaching my son acceptable social interaction. I haven’t really had an issue with another parent expecting that my child say sorry or thank you if it wasn’t forthcoming on its own.
    .-= BluebirdMama´s last blog ..By: Perceptions of Discipline | Good Goog =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Definitely worthy of some research when selecting a pre-school – that’s for sure.

  • http://parentingfromscratch.com Brooke

    Ugh, the time out and the forced-sorry. My siblings ALL use those on their own and each other’s children, to pretty much no effect. My daughter is just now 12 months, so I’ve not yet run into any of this from a practical standpoint, but I definitely plan on not using either method. My game plan is this: model apologies by apologizing/explaining on behalf of my daughter and using time-ins. I’ve actually already been apologizing for my daughter when she snatches a toy from her cousin, explaining that she’s too young to understand sharing yet. I think the problem arises when adults expect too much too early from toddlers and pre-schoolers. Whenever my daughter learns the word “sorry,” it will not necessarily mean she understands its application. As for the time-outs at school, I’m not sure it will be that big a deal for her to have you respond differently to “misbehavior” (or whatever you want to call it) at home. I’ve thought a lot about the fact that Sadie will receive different kinds of discipline from different adults, and I think as long as it’s not harmful to her (I won’t tolerate her being spanked or anything like that), I’m alright with it. I don’t think time-outs are as effective as time-ins or something else you have in mind, but unless your daughter has some major acting-out issues, I think it’ll only be the school that suffers in the long run. If that makes any sense! I’ve actually been practicing time-ins with my nieces and nephews in the hopes that modeling this behavior to my siblings might actually pay off.
    .-= Brooke´s last blog ..Duck Watch 2010 =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      I tend to use talking/negotiating instead of time outs (controversial, I know!) and sometimes if that doesn’t work I sit with her until she’s ready to do what I need her to. To be honest, it’s rare that I have to do anything because 99% of the time if she’s given a request and enough time to decide to do it, she will.

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  • http://beatniksbeatonlife.blogspot.com/ Erin W. / Beatnik Momma

    It can be hard disciplining your child judgment-free, no matter what form of discipline you use. Some parents are likely going to think you’re a pushover or doing it wrong, but they don’t know your circumstances or your philosophies. I’m currently trying to find a different route from time-outs and I’m feeling a lot of pressure from other parents myself. I just keep telling myself that I’m trying to find something that works better for myself and my child.

    The most important thing is to be consistent, no matter if she receives different forms of discipline at school. Chances are, they will remain consistent as well. Just explain to her that while she is home, things run this way, and while she is at school they run a different way. She will have to deal with learning to adapt to different sets of rules everywhere she goes for the rest of her life and by remaining consistent you are setting her up to succeed in that. (By my experience at least.)
    .-= Erin W. / Beatnik Momma´s last blog ..How Do You Deal? =-.

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Thanks Erin. I feel pretty strongly about the time out thing but am starting to think that it’s not such a big deal in a school setting.

      And I’m sure she’ll be able to understand the difference between what happens at school/home. As I recall, I never wore shoes at home and although I didn’t like it – I did manage to get it together to wear shoes to school ;o)

  • http://runningscared.ca/UrbanMomtographer LindsayDianne

    I wouldn’t worry too much about TIME OUTS, per se… But if your kid smacks another kid, and you’re not planning on making her apologize for it, you should probably find the time to explain THAT to other parents. I would think you’re more likely to run into an issue if the parents don’t see you addressing inevitable behavioural tests, etc. in SOME way, or at least having an idea beforehand of what it is that you’re doing. Not without respecting your own personal boundaries and how much you want to divulge. A simple, “I don’t do these two things that are fairly commonly used, but I do want you to know that there IS a technique in place, and I am addressing these things in my own way.”
    And I’m saying that as someone who disciplines with both time-outs and forced apologies. :)

    • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

      Obviously I’m not going to be just ignoring that sort of behaviour.

      I like other people’s ideas on here about apologising myself to the other child so that an apology is given and I’m modelling behaviour to my daughter. I also point out to my daughter how her behaviour has had a negative impact on someone else and suggest ways in which it could be remedied – such as a hug (she is only 2 after all) but I don’t force it. And all of that would be obvious to other parents.

      My concern was, that despite all of that still being in place there would probably be the expectation beyond that for conventional discipline.

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  • http://goodgoog.com Zoey @ Good Goog

    Update

    Everyone’s comments have been great. Thank you! After people saying that pre-schools / early childhood centres shouldn’t be using time-outs as a discipline strategy, I did some research.

    Of the centres that had publicly available discipline process it seemed to be used in all of them (to varying degrees – and often as a last resort).

    So it looks like I’ll just have to find one which has the softest approach possible.

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  • http://www.theparentvortex.com michelle

    One thing I do with my 3.5yo daughter that hasn’t already been mentioned (as far as I noticed, anyway) is talking about what she would do differently next time. So I would say something like, “That hurts Claire when you push her. It looks like you’re frustrated with Claire taking your toys, is that right? You need to use words to tell her what you are feeling instead of pushing her. What do you think you might do next time if you ask Claire to give you more space and she doesn’t listen?”

    For a younger toddler I’d just keep it really simple. “Pushing hurts our friends! No pushing! Let’s play gently. Are you ok, Claire?”

    Other parents mostly want to see that the infraction (however age-appropriate) has been noticed and you’ve made your child aware that they hurt someone else. As for preschools and time-outs, we’ve decided to homeschool too. :)

  • http://onestarrynight.com Sarah @ OneStarryNight

    I loved reading all the responses! With DS1 we really didn’t have a lot of interaction with other children due to our living situation at the time.

    I would think that unless someone directly approaches you about “not saying sorry” for example, just a short “we do not do that in our family” should hopefully suffice!
    .-= Sarah @ OneStarryNight´s last blog ..Wordless Wednesday: At the Chicago Botanic Garden =-.

  • http://thisisworthwhile.blogspot.com Jessica – This is Worthwhile

    I love what everyone has had to say and I’m right there with you. I was at a Jumpy Gym the other day and a little girl (about the age of my son who’s 2 1/2) was put in time out for whacking another kid. She sat there and grumbled and cried and then went about her way, continuing to be semi-aggressive (and perfectly normal for her age, I might add). Her mom was distressed more so because of the perception of her parenting. None of the other children on the receiving end of her daughter’s antics seemed to care in the least. But mom put her daughter in time out, apologized profusely herself, AND made her daughter apologize once out of timeout. I actually felt bad for her; it was a LOT of work when the rest of us parents blew it off – we ALL know how toddlers are. They’re volatile and unique and what works with one might not work with another.

    So, do what works best for you and Riley. If you’re sensitive to the other child’s needs (checking on him/her, checking in with the parent) and your child’s then the modeling and general energy expressed is a powerful message and you honestly can’t go wrong. (Did I make any sense? Jeez – I think I’ve had too much coffee!)
    .-= Jessica – This is Worthwhile´s last blog ..Excuse me, I have a poop question =-.

  • http://www.grumblesandgrunts.com the Grumbles

    It sounds like you have a good handle on things. I can say that if I personally were to witness an incident where your daughter acted up and you didn’t put her in time out I would not be concerned, because clearly you are involved, paying attention, and working with her on it. There’s a difference between not doing time out and doing nothing to address behavior issues.

    Be confident! So what if other parents end up offended or concerned? They’ll get over it and if they don’t they aren’t particularly the kind of parents I’d care to be around anyways.
    .-= the Grumbles´s last blog ..the grumbles primer on pumping at work (part three, the final chapter) =-.

  • http://www.goodgoog.com/?fcsite=15264543862287796030&fcprofile=07899727955928979084 Darcel

    We used to make them say sorry, we did a lot when my oldest was younger. We’ve since stopped.
    Sometimes my kids say they are sorry themselves, and others they don’t. Ill say I’m sorry for them at times as well. Like someone else said. I think it’s more for the benefit of the parents.
    As for a preschool. I would think Montessori would be ideal, from what I’ve read they don’t use punishments.
    Homeschooling might be an option for you.
    .-= Darcel´s last blog ..Inconvenient, Painful and Joyful – Co-Sleeping in the Age of Toddler =-.

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